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for the end the dream of revolution starts july 20th on d, w. last year, poland the trends in europe and ousted the fall, arrived law and justice policy for the beginning, prophet 8 years. but just how divided does the country remain and how wide it is the government of the far right party emerged in the european elections as the most popular among young people. my guess this week and was, or is the justice, minnesota? i don't, but now my opinion on the we are maybe a little bit, let me think this kind of them eventually how to talk about liberal values. how to talk about you are up to 2 young to young voters, few countries of what's the war in ukraine more closely than poland, which was the time. and again, the put in with much beyond his board is only no one. listen. what warnings does

the government have for europe? these pays out of button. uh welcome to come pick phone. hello good to see you. when he won the election last year, your prime minister donald task told everyone this is the end, the bad times. poland, one democracy, one who spoke a little too soon didn't a democracy. there's actually a long way for being one in poland. isn't it? i think the idea to solve a being in the system of the liberal and democracy or kind of a, some of your retirement system. i think it was, it was good to say those things that we are going to be back of the democratic track. and the law tools come along with of the coalition partners is guarantee that we are going into the democratic direction. but of course, and then even those transition requires a lot of time and energy to make it properly in order to make the democracy

sustainable and long term. the factors, though you're still battling a stage operators captured by the last government judges loyal to the last ruling party, unimpressive in the line to them whose veto you are not powerful enough to over time. so you, you have a lot of battles before you can time victory having to this show box of basically, um, i think the worst case scenario should be to say that we cannot just anything and just wait for the change of the president. so we have story far institutions, and interestingly you can make a lot of the reforms not only waiting for the adoption of the just not to not i also by simply making like a profound, a deep discussion will. those drives as well as by making the friend personal changes as well as accountability processes and involvement in these days. so. so basically that is my task on the one that has to go follow up with you through this . all the reforms on the other hand, to make a deep uh,

changes in those fields where it is possible to good accordance with low. um you, i, i appreciate if you want to make changes and you want to know the forms, but the president andre dude has actively worked against you in january. he was in fact sheltering in the presidential palace to form a law. and just as ministers have been convicted of abuse of par, where are you surprised that he'd go to such lengths to try for us what your government? you know, i think this case was a very special one. and the only one that had to utilise traits the power on for some of the law. on the other hand to it shows that the president was a, was basically called in a little bit like a political and east additional trop. the police know it is the verdict of the call to because mean that a given the dance of the december 2023 after

a number of years of the gulf fights the debts were and based on the evaluation of so called 1st pilot part of money made by mister president. so interestingly, president of paul and honestly do not made a part of the already in 2015 regarding the state of washington. mr. companies cute, although it was a part on inc, wait after the car, the 1st the as thoughts. and the interesting, the after 8 years the who as possible to achieve, i've already called the court of secretary styles, saying that this part of the vipers that did not matter, i understand, but it was a huge challenge to you wasn't good. i'm wondering since the president tom runs out the middle of next year. how your government will co exist with him until then. but please note that in this situation, those 2 don't the order put in prison. and they will release after 2 weeks of being prison after the 2nd part, the ink of the president. did you underestimate how hard it was going to be to dismantle the operators installed by the law?

just as part of your, your deputy day. i'll crowd you as mer to cold, the damage to opponents legal system, a catastrophe. it runs deep on us through stomach level. he said, this isn't the task that will take months or year. it's gonna take and taught to of office to undo. if you all to keep your coalition together, you're going to have to show some results. so pretty quickly on to for this, for this process, it could be long term. i need my last for longer than just a couple of months, pleading all this stuff in the bureau power has been built over 8 years. so just these mom things this including some personal changes that come up take place us. we'd be in a couple of weeks or holes. but i think one of the important things for us and basically that is like a huge pressure on those things is the comfortability. so uh, interestingly for a number of people in poland, it does not that important wherever those eastern additions are working properly again or not. but it is important that the people that were using power this were

simply spending money. this we're using public funds for political purposes, are facing responsibility for those kinds. they've committed either about okay, oh well they, you know, we want, we do everything in the car, those with law. but interestingly, just a couple of weeks ago, i have something me through the one the motion to lift the parliamentary immunity to one of the 2 to one of the deputy ministers. there was another motion of the preparation. there are a lot of different cases and the inc, we are going to also make accountability for the so called mutants, kate, complainant based on these judges. so i would say that it takes time, but i think we see was over week of that. so the results of the leave, but of course the event at least thing to the show, the minute the value is submission of the view of indictment does not mean uh, fluid compatibility because you're asking about the judgement of the car off

a new the final judgment of the call, but still i think from the point of view of the police people the, they see that things are going on that things are going fall off. it is already acquired in photos for the our perspective on what is happening right now in poland . one of president, dude, as advisors said that removing the 3000 judges appointed during the previous government's 10, you could cause huge legal problems and could undermine huge numbers of rulings that they've made. she's life is i think the, you mean most of the appropriate companies. yes. i do, yes, yes, said the chief of the chest, salary of the president of the of course use right. but the reason all of the dispatchers will do is just use quite differentiated. some of them are so called a name them rookie charges, so the objective score for his graduates of the school is for admission of the, of the national school for just sharing procedures and services. and they didn't have an opportunity then just to become judges open limitation of the national

council of judiciary. some of that are the people that made a choice of be candidates for hire judicial positions by his national counselor, judy sharp. so i think that went on with my task is to find like the best way to make a bad thing of those judges. and 2nd, to make those with this bad thing and such a way as not to undermine and finally, to have decimals of having to you shouldn't be reached by with the participation. because if we were to tell it, i know that all the documents you should buy them, then of course he told me because it doesn't because system. so that's why it is the issue that requires a deep reflection. that i'm going to ask the advice commission for the, the deep um, evaluation of what different procedures sort of i think of judges. and i know that i have to meet here like to a conflicting values on do i tend to get to show the independence of the i tend to do the show and the ghost ability and pull it. but there is a danger that your reference that reform could cause chaos and actually power lies

to adjust the system goods you there is always such always bugging me. you know, there is, there is the reason why we should predict the outcome of things. and we shouldn't go to quickly with those uh, changes and 2nd to you. okay. uh, we know that uh with was the president with this president. we cannot make any betting of judges because he claims that all that you to show me day shows that we're way raheem are valid and we've out and it said the uh uh or maybe without it, if los as complex to the position of the court of justice of the you and the repeat called acumen the right. both courts claim that there is a flaw industry to show them nation, so we have to rebut the slope. but that's why we need to have some time. you know that to make like a proper process of letting up those dentist, mr. but now despite your election, when poland remains deeply divided doesn't, doesn't last is election. your civic coalition actually got few

a votes from the lord. justice coalition, 6600000 to 7600000. a move of 30 percent of the electric didn't support. i have a block since i prefer the smaller parties, not very encouraging. was it? i think that the, you know, we are very satisfied with the result of the problem into our elections. i think nobody believes being the success of the democratic colleagues, sion, i think right now whenever you're after local elections and do are prominent directions, we have like deeper reflection on what people expect. of course police politics. he's very divided and we see still quite strong position of that and just smiled the and also some that's the out there, not the right week of the pop these but it, but i mean, you know, i would ask you simply tool believe a on differently forms that we have to think about snowball the level of i don't say about that if jp last rights and women's rights to the but, but i think what is for me personally and both of these that we should take about

some level of homeless, the integrity professional always and with the public life. so you know, all the different a spouse is of my work. i tried to show that that i knew come back those polices with the respect to those basic principles of openness, transparency and dignity minister. very you mentioned the european elections, your group beat low on just this but only just to get to send 2190 piece to brussels, but they'll send 20 less than last time but only one seat behind you because of the show that your democracy at least for now is a pretty fragile construct and a lot of the country doesn't support you, especially your liberal attitudes on the issues like abortion and same sex marriage that has to limit your scope from a move. uh does this i think it is. uh, i think it was, you know, this kind of approach before you repeating that, actions that the parties that are forming their willing coalition should not create

the values you felt peaks in the politics that were shown in was in the discussion regarding control and include those topics that are not only dividing lines between the early part the but also and, and the justice. but also that there are like different scopes. and there are different views of those issues by a part is forming their link. uh, colleagues, but i think right now it's clear that we have to believe that we have to make different changes. so for example, right now we're up to date, we have some a novice, serious discussion concerning, same sykes registered with partnerships. maybe we will, we will not have same sex marriage yet, but for sure there is, um, i think we are getting closer to i dropped the law and the site is like the same site. the registrar department, she maybe the during the recognition because right now you can make a correction of agenda by the child that partners with us. but we do have like a proper light is not a procedure for this. and surely,

we have to put morning thousands on work, respect for women's rights. the bad news for you in the european elections was the fact that the euro skeptic confederation, and much as the most popular party in poland, among young boats as the 18 to 29 years old. how much does that, what are you a big, you know, i'm worried because of the, i think the judge, we should talk to an go generation and using their perspective, their language and the are, we are thinking. and in my opinion, although we are maybe a little bit late, missing a this kind of a vision of how to talk about liberal values, how to talk about europe to too young to young voters. you know, just, i would just give you an example, you know, i'm a 47. i remember when you know that to cross the bulk of poland, you'll have to, you know, have passed towards these eyes when it was not that easy when you know, and it where the so called away from country was regarded as a kind of

a miracle for us okay, if you look into the ration, they don't even know what is the password about, okay? they are just traveling from even more simple barcelona, we just with id, you know, they don't, they don't understand what, what is like the real added value of the opinion of what is that is the value of the free exchange of goods or a move of people in the opinion these giving us a sense of security. so you know, if you ever are to and you breath we've this every day, you don't feel the necessity of taking care about this app. this should be clean and such a if i want it is much easier for uh, writing policies to kind of create uh, if you think of the a danger or even to make some, you know, quite a propaganda type of argumentation. and that is much more attractive to the young voters. you mentioned the european union in january. you said the union was

extremely important for public brussels as an instrument for good and all the destroyer. so we have a great loyalty to it. but this loyalty didn't extend rarely to the use reformed asylum, a migration policy, the new product is it's no, you simply repeated the same veto as the previous government will protect poland against the relocation mechanism is how donald tusk bought it so much for the promise to reset the relations, this is only a partial reset, isn't that i would suggest that we have a full reset. come, you know, uh for me, from my perspective when you rejected the fact you reject about placing the noise. let me tell uh, what i'm think about. okay, um and from my perspective being the minnesota justice and the you might need from the you recovery plan has been unblocked. that is the 1st drink, 2nd article 7 of the treaties not being any longer in use regarding fall then the so basically there are no if we got into the country and always there is a serious risk off of the undermining of the, of the rule of law i think with as

a little and migration package, it's quite a few of use an argument presented by the police government that basically poland is only because accepted more than one medium refugees from ukraine. we are picking up by the end of the forest ink and the refugees we are picking up by the football team to what you felt in the ukraine. and basically there was the political argument behind the decision on the assignment of the migration. i understand that, but in, in v towing menu packed to upset the same human rights organizations that used to work closely with you when you were human rights on boards. month especially says published border guards a once again being accused of mistreating migraines and pushing them back illegally the refugee charity. they also lane your foundation code. your government stops shameful and said to continue the policy of law. and just as most people run away,

dotted offloading from violent war and persecution, they have the button, i wouldn't have put up with that would a, you know, um, please know that uh, i participate quite often in uh, in different meetings of, uh, different internal bodies within the government that includes security with the boldest security with 10 of us. and then i'm also taking into account what is happening on the ball the in the context of the wall of the water rush, immigration on, on you. right. and 1st we don't ended out did the situation that the difficult situation at the boulder is the result of sako so called hybrid war, which is instigated by the russian by the arrows regarding uh, the end. yeah, i need to change the words this. nobody's ation of the situation is such countries as, as, as bowling. but you're all curious to really go push backs. no,

but and 2nd, think you know, quite the majority of people that are crossing double the, i'm not interested in thinking poland, but they are just interested in moving forward to the, to germany. oh, to have it you, you country. so they don't go on to event to be registered and i know that with respect to those one wants to be registered and we would like to stay and pull that then to seek for the international. uh uh, the protection become easy. they are soft with the appropriate and uh, and they can stay in, in, in poland. you said that but human rights watch demanded in march that you got access to the published asylum procedure for foreigners are seeking it, repeal unlawful border regulations that legalize push backs and stop criminal prosecution and the harassment of civil society activists trying to help asylum seekers at the border is all that too much to ask. i think the police google month is blink. every single it should be done. you know, the to put

a proper balance between the needs of the police security and the right. and the respect for, for the month of the rights of those seeking for the protection of the old out them but not would have been satisfied with that would be as i said, i be the minutes. so just is a, i still called the police. you have the government take this field. let's look if we made a russian activities and problem, the prime minister announced my interest to people alleged of profit acts of sabotage and poland, and co ordination with russian intelligence. do you have a solid case against these people? no, i am the prosecutor general. uh, and i know some of those cases, you know, uh, i might be one of those cases which was quite interesting from many different than goals. it was a plot concerning getting access to the different security procedures and information regarding the quote, the special and the guide. because being uh,

caught, uh, was the guy collaborating with the g r u. and basically this whole action was possible. thanks for the cooperation of the police and ukrainian script services as well as police on the cranium, prosecutors of. so we are you being russians, military intelligence, excuse me, g. i mean you obviously military intelligence because they may have some freedom by the rush. um, uh, the address and you know, and those cases that were about putting fire in different places. they were also cases a light like this is the one where i think one of the most important cases was the case of the near brooks. well, where the guy was going to put the fire under the factory of paints painting, master yells, unfortunately, because we stopped before doing this by the police, but the police secrets services. so, you know, he does quite a new phenomenon for us that we have that kind of new cases, all still nation, pull that, you know, and for us also what is quite important in your end and very radical one is that

one of the police judges decided to emigrate from poland to the system assessment and he became a he started to cooperate with the vision and the new forces. so he goes mean immediately expands from the to show the position. and he has been that the, the price of them, one of the just show the menu to, you know, the right that there is a european, the restore. and after he, you should, let's talk about the war in ukraine. if we may, um, from your vantage point, what are the chances you crime will lose them? you know, i think that i what extent my company tends to comment on such a issues. please note that i do, i deal with a lot of issues, but i'm still most of just the prosecutor general, but i'm not the minister for you in the 1st or i'm not that political or joe political strategist, or i'm at least you talk totally about the hybrid war,

the russia is waging in poland. is this in your view stand the kremlin interference . so part of a bigger plan? yes i, i know that you would like for me to, to, to, to hear from me some more with general um argumentation regarding uh that is about to you know, uh that is the reason we have a great experience on those issues. ms. bennett and other stuff she called us key who has a deep knowledge about international relations and then the um to spend the golf bit of the different the restroom and implants as well. but you know, some of the cases of the 9 who'd be interested. yeah. but maybe i will just talk to you about one more fee because i think it should be important. you know, one of the important thing sheet ease of this government and the department is still gonna have to disclose the creation of a special committee. kind of my advice already by the to investigate different forms of rush. so if lawyers on police file,

then this company doesn't create the just the weeks ago. it is composed of exports from different fields from forwarding to relations, uh from uh, and on the, with this information, the economy. uh and, and the economy side. uh, they're also lawyer. we're seeing this in this group. and i think a troll could be quite interesting to evaluate what are the of the possibilities of a mouthful throb of influencing the police. i believe these court. so for example, i see that there is a lot of these information that the spreading quite easily and the police, these cars that could be a result of the russian applause r o, we can see that there are, there were some activities to have a deeper influence. on the energy sector on different fields of economy. so i think

this is courtney, both of you, my opinion on the conflicts of the police debate. you still kind of look deeply into different forms and my thoughts. oh, russian influence on a daily political life. this committee that you talked about, how long does it's about what it's saying. and poland, excuse me, i'm asking this committee that you mentioned, which is monitoring russian activities in poland. how long is it? it's about what it's saying. so i don't know yet what could be the result of the work of this committee? it has been just, it has just started the walk about there is a, there was a strong pressure by the prime ministers on those by to me still being tardy or add to that this committee will, to be quite a, to the how the war king a powerful in terms of seeking welding the spread science because i think is that sometimes we do not appreciate to what extent i don't know some few ways of looking at one of those who nor i. architects of the 0 you uh,

the optic vision of the world are later on, proudly translated into the daily politics of the new friend you and member states, including their opponents or how different methods of these information are used on the daily a database. so. so my feedback is that the, what this company called have also something bolton's fall of a new countries just to, to look at what, what are the potential and actual ways of people seeing that public discourse in different countries at the bottom. uh, thank you very much for being on complex, so i appreciate your time. thank you. thank you very much. so thank you. thank. thank you. the

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Confronting the Powerful Guest: Adam Bodnar, Polish Minister of Justice

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